How I built a $30K/month mobile app
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No tools listed for this business.
My
app
has
been
downloaded
5
million
times
and
I
did
it
all
by
myself
This
is
John
McAvoy
a
gentleman
from
Scotland
who
taught
himself
how
to
code
code
and
built
something
incredible
I
had
a
problem
I
needed
to
solve
so
I
built
it
But
here's
what's
even
crazier
his
app
has
been
downloaded
over
5
million
times
thanks
to
one
simple
strategy
that
costs
him
zero
dollars
App
store
optimization
is
really
just
about
research
and
patience
I
asked
John
to
come
onto
the
channel
and
he
shared
everything
and
in
this
video
we'll
go
over
the
app
that
makes
him
30
000
a
month
his
advice
for
finding
great
app
ideas
and
the
simple
and
free
strategy
that
helped
him
hit
5
million
downloads
All
right
this
one's
going
to
be
fun
Let's
dive
in
I'm
Pat
Walls
and
this
is
Starter
Story
Okay
welcome
John
from
Scotland
Tell
me
about
who
you
are
what
you
built
and
what's
your
story
I
built
an
app
called
Momego
It's
a
bus
and
train
tracking
app
It
covers
over
160
cities
So
it's
been
downloaded
about
just
over
5
million
times
so
far
since
2017
I
did
it
all
solo
with
no
previous
developer
experience
Okay
John
I
mean
you're
one
guy
who
built
an
app
that's
used
by
millions
of
people
I
think
that's
crazy
Can
you
share
some
of
the
numbers
behind
this
app
behind
what
you
built
Yeah
so
right
now
it's
around
30
000
monthly
recurring
revenue
Pretty
much
all
of
that
is
subscription
based
Total
number
of
downloads
is
around
5
2
million
at
the
moment
The
monthly
active
users
is
around
400
000
with
around
75
000
ratings
so
far
All
right
I
mean
that's
crazy
You
did
this
without
developer
experience
Can
you
tell
me
a
little
bit
more
about
your
background
and
how
you
even
got
to
a
point
where
you
could
build
an
app
like
this
Yeah
so
I
started
my
career
in
graphic
design
And
as
I
started
my
career
more
and
more
I
was
just
more
curious
about
development
So
JavaScript
backend
systems
databases
It's
just
this
curiosity
about
being
able
to
make
something
out
of
nothing
Creating
software
that
just
works
and
can
be
used
by
so
many
people
That's
amazing
It
reminds
me
of
my
story
Just
it's
so
cool
to
build
something
and
know
that
someone
out
there
in
the
world
is
using
it
Let's
fast
forward
a
little
bit
to
the
app
that
you
actually
built
How
did
you
even
get
the
idea
for
an
app
like
this
At
the
time
I
was
working
for
a
bus
company
in
Edinburgh
in
Scotland
I
wanted
a
way
to
see
where
a
bus
was
on
a
map
Uber
had
just
come
out
It
was
such
a
thrill
to
be
able
to
see
a
taxi
coming
along
the
map
towards
you
And
I
wanted
to
have
the
same
experience
waiting
for
a
bus
I
wanted
something
that
would
allow
me
to
finish
having
my
coffee
in
the
morning
morning
without
having
to
stand
at
a
bus
stop
for
10
20
minutes
in
the
rain
And
that
was
the
initial
idea
behind
the
app
For
any
developer
any
idea
you
have
has
to
be
something
that
you
a
problem
that
you
yourself
have
And
if
it
works
for
you
there's
a
good
chance
it'll
work
for
lots
of
other
people
Okay
so
you
mentioned
you
came
from
a
designer
background
and
you
essentially
taught
yourself
how
to
code
You're
sort
of
self
taught
So
tell
me
about
how
you
actually
built
this
thing
What
was
the
build
journey
to
turn
basically
no
coding
knowledge
into
a
pretty
pretty
legit
complicated
app
First
of
all
I
started
off
with
just
creating
designs
in
Illustrator
And
once
that
was
done
I
started
chipping
away
bit
by
bit
at
the
development
side
At
this
point
I
didn't
have
any
experience
with
smartphone
app
development
I
turned
to
some
of
my
coding
experience
in
the
past
for
websites
And
so
the
first
few
versions
of
the
app
were
built
in
Xamarin
that
uses
csharp
net
That's
what
I
was
comfortable
with
at
the
time
It
was
a
really
tough
process
because
the
paradigm
of
creating
an
iOS
and
Android
app
is
so
different
from
creating
a
website
website
It
was
months
of
building
failing
tweaking
And
once
it
was
launched
I
was
able
to
spend
some
time
making
the
code
better
because
it
was
a
mess
At
this
point
Swift
had
been
around
for
a
few
years
and
Flutter
had
just
been
released
So
I
took
a
few
months
to
rebuild
the
app
in
native
Swift
on
iOS
And
because
of
the
way
the
app
works
with
maps
and
sliding
panels
Flutter
was
perfect
So
I
was
able
to
rebuild
very
quickly
within
two
or
three
months
Cool
Well
nowadays
you
can
pretty
much
do
all
that
with
AI
tools
in
three
days
which
is
funny
to
look
back
at
how
much
really
had
to
go
into
building
apps
When
we
chatted
earlier
you
let
me
know
about
this
one
thing
that
really
took
your
app
to
the
next
level
Can
you
tell
me
what
that
was
Yeah
it's
called
app
store
optimization
And
this
is
the
process
of
finding
specific
phrases
that
people
are
searching
for
and
including
those
in
your
app
title
subtitle
and
keyword
list
in
order
that
when
people
search
that
sentence
or
phrase
your
app
comes
up
first
Okay
app
store
optimization
Can
you
break
down
what
actually
worked
for
you
How
you
got
your
app
used
by
millions
of
people
for
essentially
free
Can
you
give
me
this
playbook
right
now
Okay
with
app
store
optimization
there
are
three
basic
steps
Step
one
you
want
to
find
in
this
case
location
specific
keywords
Things
like
New
York
subway
Chicago
train
Add
those
to
the
title
and
metadata
of
the
app
That
will
start
the
process
of
the
app
appearing
in
searches
for
those
specific
keywords
But
it
wasn't
until
I
did
some
research
that
growth
really
happened
First
of
all
I
could
see
that
different
cities
use
different
terminology
So
for
example
in
New
York
you've
got
the
MTA
subway
In
Chicago
you
have
the
CTA
L
train
Once
I
started
adding
these
kind
of
keywords
keywords
I
found
that
downloads
increased
substantially
At
the
same
time
I
also
updated
screenshots
so
they're
much
more
location
specific
So
each
localization
would
have
its
own
set
of
screenshots
to
hone
in
on
the
fact
that
this
app
works
for
where
you
are
right
now
The
next
step
was
to
use
other
localizations
So
for
example
if
you
were
to
add
keywords
to
Mexican
Spanish
those
same
keywords
would
be
indexed
for
the
US
app
store
and
have
the
same
weight
as
the
native
US
English
localization
Step
two
was
to
find
more
keywords
that
worked
You
have
two
choices
You
can
use
Apple
search
ads
start
testing
a
few
keywords
at
a
time
to
see
which
ones
convert
or
using
the
app
store
itself
search
for
terms
keywords
and
phrases
around
what
your
app
does
By
typing
in
the
first
few
characters
into
search
you'll
see
a
list
come
up
And
most
people
when
you
start
typing
will
see
the
list
appear
and
tap
on
the
first
or
second
entry
So
by
looking
at
those
lists
I
was
able
to
determine
what
are
the
most
high
impact
keywords
people
are
searching
for
And
the
best
thing
about
this
is
is
because
they're
very
specific
they
don't
have
a
huge
popularity
So
by
targeting
those
keywords
specifically
in
the
right
place
at
the
right
time
you
can
quite
easily
get
into
the
top
five
for
a
keyword
And
step
three
asking
for
ratings
within
the
app
At
this
point
you
should
be
at
the
top
10
for
the
keywords
you're
looking
to
target
If
an
app
wants
to
get
to
number
one
it
needs
ratings
coming
in
all
the
time
You
need
to
have
golden
moments
where
you
can
ask
for
a
rating
In
this
case
it
could
be
when
you
tap
on
a
stop
and
see
a
live
tracking
of
a
bus
or
train
You
can
actually
see
it
moving
on
the
map
That's
a
great
moment
to
ask
the
customer
for
a
rating
rating
where
the
customer
is
most
likely
to
respond
positively
If
you
can
get
those
ratings
coming
in
your
app
will
rise
organically
to
the
top
top
for
all
the
keywords
that
you're
targeting
Now
here's
something
I
love
about
John's
story
John
didn't
just
build
a
cool
app
He
built
a
real
business
That
means
dealing
with
taxes
bookkeeping
and
all
the
admin
stuff
that
has
nothing
to
do
with
actually
building
So
many
solo
founders
like
John
trip
up
on
this
part
and
put
it
off
until
it
becomes
a
mess
Well
that's
where
Doola
comes
in
Doola
helps
you
set
up
your
LLC
handle
your
bookkeeping
and
stay
tax
compliant
all
in
one
place
It's
basically
like
having
an
ops
team
without
the
overhead
They
don't
just
hand
you
a
checklist
checklist
and
leave
you
to
figure
it
all
out
They
actually
stick
with
you
and
make
sure
you're
set
up
for
success
from
day
one
Thousands
of
entrepreneurs
in
over
175
countries
use
Doola
because
it
actually
works
So
let
Doola
handle
the
boring
stuff
for
you
so
you
can
focus
on
what
actually
matters
in
building
your
business
If
you're
starting
something
right
now
just
head
to
the
first
link
in
the
description
and
use
code
starter
story
for
10
off
Thank
you
to
Doola
for
supporting
the
channel
All
right
let's
get
back
to
the
story
Let's
switch
topics
a
little
bit
to
the
growth
of
an
app
like
this
I
really
want
to
understand
what
it
takes
to
grow
an
app
like
yours
from
zero
to
30
000
a
month
Can
you
walk
me
through
kind
of
the
journey
there
For
the
first
couple
of
years
more
and
more
downloads
were
coming
in
and
I
started
to
monetize
using
banner
ads
It
was
making
around
say
8
000
a
month
but
then
the
pandemic
hit
and
suddenly
my
ad
revenue
just
disappeared
I
knew
I
needed
to
pivot
quickly
At
this
point
subscriptions
were
becoming
more
mainstream
So
I
rebuilt
the
app
with
subscriptions
in
mind
with
premium
features
that
would
entice
people
to
pay
on
an
annual
basis
In
August
2020
that
new
update
was
released
and
over
the
next
year
it
grew
and
grew
grew
and
eventually
replaced
the
missing
ad
revenue
But
in
2021
this
is
when
the
real
growth
happened
because
I
finally
started
to
use
A
B
testing
I
started
creating
different
paywalls
to
see
which
one
performed
better
And
over
the
course
of
maybe
two
or
three
months
with
maybe
10
experiments
I
was
able
to
increase
the
conversion
rate
from
0
5
all
the
way
up
to
8
just
by
optimizing
the
onboarding
and
paywall
And
suddenly
growth
skyrocketed
going
from
around
8K
a
month
to
over
30
000
Okay
John
I
would
love
to
actually
see
your
app
Would
you
be
able
to
give
us
a
quick
demo
of
what
your
app
actually
does
I'd
also
love
if
you
showed
us
this
kind
of
onboarding
paywall
thing
that
you
mentioned
sort
of
changed
the
business
as
well
when
you
made
that
big
pivot
Could
you
show
us
the
app
Okay
this
is
the
first
launch
of
the
app
and
it's
really
designed
to
very
quickly
show
the
value
of
the
app
because
most
people
who
are
downloading
and
installing
the
app
app
are
doing
so
at
a
bus
stop
or
a
train
station
So
there's
no
time
for
a
20
screen
onboarding
First
of
all
it
quickly
asks
for
your
location
because
that's
one
of
the
most
important
permissions
for
this
app
and
then
shows
you
a
few
screens
about
what
you're
going
to
get
from
this
app
Not
just
bus
tracking
but
all
the
extra
features
and
this
is
kind
of
setting
it
up
for
the
paywalls
to
come
It
kind
of
shows
a
bit
of
social
proof
right
It
says
join
millions
saving
time
and
this
gets
the
customer
prepared
and
that
is
the
paywall
itself
It's
got
three
different
options
seven
day
free
trial
for
a
yearly
plan
You
have
a
weekly
plan
for
a
low
commitment
and
for
people
who
just
don't
like
subscriptions
you've
got
a
lifetime
plan
Now
the
great
thing
here
is
after
a
lot
of
experimentation
what
I've
found
is
a
real
unlock
is
for
people
who
just
tap
on
the
close
button
the
app
starts
a
reverse
trial
So
if
I
close
it
just
now
it
says
enjoy
a
week
of
Pro
on
us
and
now
you
have
seven
days
free
trial
of
all
the
Pro
features
starts
without
you
having
to
pay
or
without
you
having
to
make
any
kind
of
commitment
At
this
point
you've
got
a
few
screens
showing
you
what
you
get
from
Pro
showing
off
all
the
details
Finally
you're
in
the
app
app
and
now
I
can
see
everything
around
me
I
can
just
move
around
the
map
and
I'll
just
choose
a
little
bus
stop
here
and
what
I
can
do
here
is
I
can
just
tap
on
the
departure
and
this
is
real
magic
moment
This
is
where
you
can
actually
see
the
bus
on
the
map
It's
moving
and
if
I
tap
on
go
it
will
turn
on
trip
assist
and
then
at
that
point
it
won't
just
track
where
I
am
I've
got
machine
learning
set
up
on
the
server
server
that
will
keep
track
of
my
what's
happening
up
ahead
on
my
journey
So
if
there's
a
train
or
bus
that's
delayed
delayed
or
I'm
going
to
miss
a
connection
the
server
will
know
and
send
me
a
notification
and
offer
me
an
alternative
route
and
that's
the
real
magic
of
the
app
All
right
Well
the
other
question
I
have
for
you
is
what
is
this
built
on
Like
what
tech
and
what
stack
is
this
app
built
on
right
now
With
this
app
I
go
for
old
and
boring
Laravel
PHP
for
the
backend
and
for
marketing
materials
the
UI
of
the
app
graphics
It's
just
Adobe
Creative
Suite
I
use
Lottie
quite
a
lot
for
things
like
animations
I
would
create
an
animation
in
After
Effects
and
convert
it
into
Lottie
for
inclusion
within
the
app
app
for
ASO
research
I
tend
to
go
for
app
figures
Revenue
Cat
is
fantastic
for
subscription
management
and
the
biggest
unlock
for
me
is
using
event
analytics
I
use
Mixpanel
I
use
Cloudflare
for
a
kind
of
geographic
load
balancer
and
that
costs
around
90
a
month
I
do
use
ChatGBT
for
pretty
much
everything
and
that's
around
20
a
month
On
that
same
note
could
you
also
share
some
of
the
costs
around
this
business
I
understand
you're
just
one
guy
running
it
here
What
are
some
of
the
tools
you're
paying
for
What
are
the
margins
look
like
on
this
The
biggest
cost
for
me
are
servers
So
I
run
about
20
dedicated
servers
that
cost
around
2
500
a
month
For
various
third
party
APIs
like
mapping
that's
around
1
000
a
month
Okay
last
question
that
we
ask
everyone
who
comes
on
the
Starter
Story
channel
If
you
could
stand
on
John's
shoulders
shoulders
when
you're
just
starting
out
back
when
you're
a
graphic
designer
or
for
anyone
watching
this
right
now
what
would
be
your
advice
for
anyone
starting
a
mobile
app
in
2025
Two
things
Number
one
you
need
to
solve
a
problem
that
you
have
because
when
you're
working
nights
and
weekends
you're
hitting
walls
all
the
time
You
need
something
to
keep
you
going
and
solving
your
own
problem
is
probably
the
best
way
to
get
past
that
block
each
time
And
secondly
for
the
first
couple
of
years
I
was
relying
on
vanity
metrics
to
see
how
well
I
was
doing
Things
like
monthly
active
users
that
wasn't
really
moving
the
needle
It
was
only
when
I
moved
to
event
based
analytics
that
growth
really
happened
Being
able
to
set
up
A
B
tests
for
different
paywalls
to
see
which
one
is
more
effective
by
trusting
the
data
that
you
get
from
these
kind
of
analytics
you'll
have
a
much
better
idea
of
who
your
customers
are
and
what
they
want
All
right
Well
that
was
great
advice
Thank
you
for
sharing
that
John
What
you
built
is
awesome
I
think
it's
amazing
that
you
built
something
by
yourself
that's
used
by
millions
of
people
I
think
it's
amazing
So
thanks
for
coming
on
sharing
everything
especially
all
that
cool
stuff
about
App
Store
optimization
Thanks
for
coming
on
It's
been
my
pleasure
Thanks
to
John
for
coming
on
the
channel
and
sharing
his
strategy
I
think
it's
insane
that
someone
like
John
from
Scotland
can
come
up
with
an
idea
build
it
and
then
5
million
people
can
use
it
and
love
it
and
they
can
make
money
That's
just
amazing
That's
what
Starter
Story
is
all
about
And
this
is
exactly
why
we
launched
Starter
Story
Build
where
we
will
help
you
take
your
idea
and
turn
it
into
a
real
app
using
only
AI
tools
So
if
you're
ready
to
launch
your
project
just
like
John
did
head
to
the
link
in
the
description
to
check
out
Starter
Story
Build
All
right
that's
it
for
this
episode
Thank
you
guys
for
watching
We'll
see
you
in
the
next
one
Peace
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